Even neglecting social issues, what the stereotypical rural voter wants isn't possible. They want well-paying blue collar jobs back, cheap consumer goods, world-class infrastructure, and balanced government budgets, while also wanting complete deregulation of any corporate entity or taxes levied against rich people. Guess what, you can't have all of that. The GOP is all too happy to sell the fiction that all of these contradictions go away if we just get tough on [insert cause of the day.] The fact that too many rural folks want to believe these lies, while being subject to the world's most sophisticated propaganda, is the real hill Democrats have to climb. I wish I knew how to cut this Gordian Knot.
I honestly don't know how the Democratic Party writ large could be more centrist at this point. Joe Biden is so moderate as to qualify as a Republican in other eras. And as a centrist Democrat, I love this about him and this current iteration of my party- we're incredibly pragmatic at a policy level right now. You look at most of our party, they are able compromisers, focused on middle of the road issues, deeply concerned with economic and social policy that lifts all boats and is not fringe left wing. That said, while the GOP never seems to wind up tarred with an extremist brush by a ton of voters who still believe that cesspool is the home of "fiscal responsibility and family values," those same voters seem to believe the Democratic Party believes that everyone just might be transgender or "turned," we're all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs over "critical race theory" and that we believe in abortions in the seconds before and even after birth. It's crazy making. The brush the Dem party is painted with is its extreme outliers, when 90% of those in office and those working on laws and policy are incredibly centrist. I am not sure how the hell we fix this because not enough voters are paying attention to what the party is ACTUALLY saying and doing, just what they are being TOLD by the media and the GOP we are all about.
I must admit, I'm amused by Charlie saying, "What, you don't like what Ruy has to say? Here, have a list of links to over a dozen articles he's written." Ruy makes some solid points. One of the problems Democrats have, though, is beyond their control: There is a rightwing media apparatus, and a competing political party, that has become accustomed to both lying about them constantly and shamelessly and to demonizing them in the most despicable ways. And, any adults there were who were capable of containing any of this have become complicit, gone silent, or been excommunicated, and are feckless in any case. One side plays by different rules, they have for a long time, and the other side is not capable of sinking to their level, because they have principles and a moral compass.
As for the David French piece, the only thing Republicans hate more than liberals are apostates. He's an apostate. I appreciate his courage; he certainly doesn't belong with that team anymore.
I'm a moderate, so generally I am aligned at least in theory with what Charlie and Ruy are saying... But how it's coming off is telling an abuse victim they need to be nicer to their abuser and they will stop being punched.
The Pro-Life GOP: No exceptions for rape, incest, or the health of the mother or baby. But we do make exceptions for GOP politicians, their friends, and rich donors. What's not to understand?
If I had to choose between the Progressive Left and today's GQP, it's not even close - the Progressive Left is not authoritarian.
That said, it's a false choice. There are plenty of moderate democratic candidates on the ballot at all levels - local, state, and federal. The problem is that the Progressive Left has a megaphone, the GOP paints the entire party as run by the PL, and low-information voters fall for it. Perhaps the problem is that moderate Democrats are not fighting back against the left loudly enough.
I used to watch MSNBC, in particularly Nicolle Wallace and Brian Williams. They are the only non-progressive-left hosts, and now Brian Williams is gone. I've often wondered if his departure had something to do with him believing the network was going too far left, but who knows? I still watch Deadline Whitehouse, but skip the rest.
I don't care what the issue is, poll after poll shows an astounding consensus on most of the issues that plague our country, but because the left will not compromise - it's always our way or the highway - we cannot come up with moderate policies. I still believe that center-left and center-right is where the majority of Americans land.
So, yes, I agree that history's judgement will be that the Democratic Party was not up to the task of saving our democracy, but the real onus will go to the Republican Party that decided power at all costs was worth more than any principle they may have once stood for.
I don't have the answers, only opinions, and I wish someone in the public space, like the Bulwark, would use their megaphone and connections to convene a symposium of experts from all fields to come up with a coherent, national strategy for fighting authoritarianism, before it's too late. For decades the Right has been implementing a national strategy to move the courts to the right, to move state legislatures to anti-democratic agendas, and those in the middle and on the left have no coherent plan to effectively stop them.
I get the tough love, to some degree, but the media (or lack of local media) is also to a large degree responsible for Dems problems. It's the private equity folks and cranky old white guy execs who have destroyed local news and tainted the national media. Sure, it sounds like an excuse, but it's the truth that's hard to avoid. They chase the sensational, and that often benefits the GOP because they have nothing but sensational via culture wars. As a MN resident I see NO WAY to bring in the white rural voter to the Dem party with the exception of choice--an issue that affects even rural voters. These people are living in an information vacuum, have little touch with reality outside their small towns (their understanding of urban life is based on fantasy they've gleaned from Tucker), and an addiction to anger/resentment. In urban settings, people vote Dem because they can't avoid the truth of the news at some level, and see that crime is a function of a country awash in guns and youth who have been lost to COVID restrictions, many of which were necessary, as well as racist systems. I'm sorry, but I have very little hope that Dems, no matter how hard they work, can overcome the stupidity and delusions of the American public. Voters can't overcome their emotions about their failed lives long enough to listen to real solutions to the complex problem we face.
I want to. Hell, I often try to. But dammit, I hate using the word "patriot". Ever since the Tea Party, the term itself has been purposefully co-opted by the radical right to the point where that word is now a part of the name of a white nationalist hate group. If you go online and see a username or bio with the word "patriot" in it, 99% of the time... that dude (it's almost always a man) is far-right lunatic. I don't want any semblance of association with these chodes and as such, I don't know how to label myself as someone who loves the USA, but is willing to criticize it because I want it to be better.
Just as cruelty is the GOP's point, lying as "fuck you" is also the point. Electing a horrendous person to the Senate is exactly like those house burglars who take a dump on the carpet. Walker is the ultimate Republican: a fraud, a liar, a cheat, a misogynist, hated by people who know him, loved by people who hate America.
This Democrat can handle criticism, and I've certainly heaped a bunch on my state Democratic party in the past. What I find interesting, though, is that I don't run across articles warning Republicans about the dangers of campaigning on divisive social issues, except from disaffected Republicans and former Republicans (like those who write for The Bulwark and The Dispatch).
As I'm wont to do here, I also have to say -- look at Ohio. In Tim Ryan, we're running a Democratic candidate AND campaign that should appeal to a broad cross section of Ohio voters, including those in the mainly red suburbs surrounding major cities. John Fetterman in PA is another example of a Democrat who has cross party appeal. Nan Whaley, who's running to replace Mike DeWine as governor of Ohio, is another excellent candidate. And I'm optimistic that even with districts deemed unconstitutional by the Ohio Supreme Court, my district will elect a Democrat to the U.S. House, now that my city is no longer bifurcated.
I'm cautiously optimistic but as a Democrat in Ohio, I'm used to having my heart broken.
I live in Trump Country. Rural, farming, Christian. Lily white. The woods south of my farm is where the Governor Whitmer kidnap plan was practiced. The Qanon congress woman in the next town convinced at least two clerks to give her voting machine tabulators to be analyzed. She not only still serves, the Republicans refused to strip her of her committees even though she's under investigation. I have been saying this for at least five years and I'll say it again so those in the back of the room can hear me. The rural Republican voters here will NEVER vote for a Democrat. They are addicted to FOX and too far gone. Their pastors help whip up the frenzy by speaking of tyranny and end times. It doesn't matter what Democrats plan to do for them or what they've already done for them, which is plenty. Democrats are evil and anti-God as far as their concerned. They wouldn't elect a Democrat as dog catcher.
They resent anything that could be considered "the common good," because it might reach the hands of people they don't approve of, even if they have to do without as well. They are adamantly anti-abortion. Many single issue voters. The Michigan Farm Bureau tells them that Democrats are trying to ruin them financially through water regulations, which isn't true. Every time I hear strategists, newspaper columnists and talking heads discuss how the Dems need to try harder with rural people, I shake my head. You have to live among these people to understand them. Once the right managed to convince them that God was on their side all bets were off. When it's no longer about policy disagreements but God almighty, persuasion is dead.
"Ruy, who has spent decades as a progressive analyst"
No, he's a liberal analyst. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm a liberal myself. But there's a (legitimate, IMO) criticism that you don't have a long track record of seeking out voices for discussion that are past a certain point on the overton window. And representing Mr. Teixeira as being further along that continuum than he is doesn't really answer that criticism.
Well Charlie, if you feel the necessity to shove a list of myriad ways that Democrats have and are failing our country’s citizens 4 weeks before an election, then this could work as a form of voter suppression for many who may be just on that line of whether it’s worth their time to vote if everything is shit and is going to stay shit. Why the aggressive stance? What do you hope to accomplish from your list of negativity for our only Democratic Party? Are the Democrats perfect? No! No party ever is, but at least they are democratic versus the autocratic GOP or AGOP! Trump has been a scourge on this country and it’s the Republican Party who is responsible for all the misinformation, chaos and radical Supreme Court. Our democracy is on the line in the Moore v Harper case that our radical Supreme Court has chosen to review. Out of approximately 7000 cases of which our Supreme Court regularly reviews 70 per year, why did this Supreme Court chose this case? The radical 6 justices plan to give state legislatures unfettered reign over our elections. The ISL theory is a travesty and will end our system of democratic elections forever in this country. Maybe you could make the ISL theory number 1 on your list of all the ways that the GOP is and has been failing the citizens of this great country.
Personally, I like Mallory McMorrow's approach to "culture war" issues. She supports being inclusive of trans children because they are children and teaching the history of race in America because it is history. She approaches these issues as a mom who wants the best for her kids and their friends and neighbors, which is about as universal and community-oriented as it gets. I do not and never will understand the threat that this supposedly poses to people in "red" areas of the country.
Even neglecting social issues, what the stereotypical rural voter wants isn't possible. They want well-paying blue collar jobs back, cheap consumer goods, world-class infrastructure, and balanced government budgets, while also wanting complete deregulation of any corporate entity or taxes levied against rich people. Guess what, you can't have all of that. The GOP is all too happy to sell the fiction that all of these contradictions go away if we just get tough on [insert cause of the day.] The fact that too many rural folks want to believe these lies, while being subject to the world's most sophisticated propaganda, is the real hill Democrats have to climb. I wish I knew how to cut this Gordian Knot.
I honestly don't know how the Democratic Party writ large could be more centrist at this point. Joe Biden is so moderate as to qualify as a Republican in other eras. And as a centrist Democrat, I love this about him and this current iteration of my party- we're incredibly pragmatic at a policy level right now. You look at most of our party, they are able compromisers, focused on middle of the road issues, deeply concerned with economic and social policy that lifts all boats and is not fringe left wing. That said, while the GOP never seems to wind up tarred with an extremist brush by a ton of voters who still believe that cesspool is the home of "fiscal responsibility and family values," those same voters seem to believe the Democratic Party believes that everyone just might be transgender or "turned," we're all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs over "critical race theory" and that we believe in abortions in the seconds before and even after birth. It's crazy making. The brush the Dem party is painted with is its extreme outliers, when 90% of those in office and those working on laws and policy are incredibly centrist. I am not sure how the hell we fix this because not enough voters are paying attention to what the party is ACTUALLY saying and doing, just what they are being TOLD by the media and the GOP we are all about.
I must admit, I'm amused by Charlie saying, "What, you don't like what Ruy has to say? Here, have a list of links to over a dozen articles he's written." Ruy makes some solid points. One of the problems Democrats have, though, is beyond their control: There is a rightwing media apparatus, and a competing political party, that has become accustomed to both lying about them constantly and shamelessly and to demonizing them in the most despicable ways. And, any adults there were who were capable of containing any of this have become complicit, gone silent, or been excommunicated, and are feckless in any case. One side plays by different rules, they have for a long time, and the other side is not capable of sinking to their level, because they have principles and a moral compass.
As for the David French piece, the only thing Republicans hate more than liberals are apostates. He's an apostate. I appreciate his courage; he certainly doesn't belong with that team anymore.
I'm a moderate, so generally I am aligned at least in theory with what Charlie and Ruy are saying... But how it's coming off is telling an abuse victim they need to be nicer to their abuser and they will stop being punched.
The Pro-Life GOP: No exceptions for rape, incest, or the health of the mother or baby. But we do make exceptions for GOP politicians, their friends, and rich donors. What's not to understand?
If I had to choose between the Progressive Left and today's GQP, it's not even close - the Progressive Left is not authoritarian.
That said, it's a false choice. There are plenty of moderate democratic candidates on the ballot at all levels - local, state, and federal. The problem is that the Progressive Left has a megaphone, the GOP paints the entire party as run by the PL, and low-information voters fall for it. Perhaps the problem is that moderate Democrats are not fighting back against the left loudly enough.
I used to watch MSNBC, in particularly Nicolle Wallace and Brian Williams. They are the only non-progressive-left hosts, and now Brian Williams is gone. I've often wondered if his departure had something to do with him believing the network was going too far left, but who knows? I still watch Deadline Whitehouse, but skip the rest.
I don't care what the issue is, poll after poll shows an astounding consensus on most of the issues that plague our country, but because the left will not compromise - it's always our way or the highway - we cannot come up with moderate policies. I still believe that center-left and center-right is where the majority of Americans land.
So, yes, I agree that history's judgement will be that the Democratic Party was not up to the task of saving our democracy, but the real onus will go to the Republican Party that decided power at all costs was worth more than any principle they may have once stood for.
I don't have the answers, only opinions, and I wish someone in the public space, like the Bulwark, would use their megaphone and connections to convene a symposium of experts from all fields to come up with a coherent, national strategy for fighting authoritarianism, before it's too late. For decades the Right has been implementing a national strategy to move the courts to the right, to move state legislatures to anti-democratic agendas, and those in the middle and on the left have no coherent plan to effectively stop them.
Happy Thursday, indeed!
I get the tough love, to some degree, but the media (or lack of local media) is also to a large degree responsible for Dems problems. It's the private equity folks and cranky old white guy execs who have destroyed local news and tainted the national media. Sure, it sounds like an excuse, but it's the truth that's hard to avoid. They chase the sensational, and that often benefits the GOP because they have nothing but sensational via culture wars. As a MN resident I see NO WAY to bring in the white rural voter to the Dem party with the exception of choice--an issue that affects even rural voters. These people are living in an information vacuum, have little touch with reality outside their small towns (their understanding of urban life is based on fantasy they've gleaned from Tucker), and an addiction to anger/resentment. In urban settings, people vote Dem because they can't avoid the truth of the news at some level, and see that crime is a function of a country awash in guns and youth who have been lost to COVID restrictions, many of which were necessary, as well as racist systems. I'm sorry, but I have very little hope that Dems, no matter how hard they work, can overcome the stupidity and delusions of the American public. Voters can't overcome their emotions about their failed lives long enough to listen to real solutions to the complex problem we face.
The subtext of "I have no idea WHO this woman is" is
"I have no idea WHICH woman this is". I'd bet my house this isn't the only woman who has had an abortion at his behest.
I have a feeling today's comments section is going to be fire.
Bring the heat folks, but remember we're on the same side here.
"Embrace patriotism and don’t apologize for it.”
I want to. Hell, I often try to. But dammit, I hate using the word "patriot". Ever since the Tea Party, the term itself has been purposefully co-opted by the radical right to the point where that word is now a part of the name of a white nationalist hate group. If you go online and see a username or bio with the word "patriot" in it, 99% of the time... that dude (it's almost always a man) is far-right lunatic. I don't want any semblance of association with these chodes and as such, I don't know how to label myself as someone who loves the USA, but is willing to criticize it because I want it to be better.
Just as cruelty is the GOP's point, lying as "fuck you" is also the point. Electing a horrendous person to the Senate is exactly like those house burglars who take a dump on the carpet. Walker is the ultimate Republican: a fraud, a liar, a cheat, a misogynist, hated by people who know him, loved by people who hate America.
This Democrat can handle criticism, and I've certainly heaped a bunch on my state Democratic party in the past. What I find interesting, though, is that I don't run across articles warning Republicans about the dangers of campaigning on divisive social issues, except from disaffected Republicans and former Republicans (like those who write for The Bulwark and The Dispatch).
As I'm wont to do here, I also have to say -- look at Ohio. In Tim Ryan, we're running a Democratic candidate AND campaign that should appeal to a broad cross section of Ohio voters, including those in the mainly red suburbs surrounding major cities. John Fetterman in PA is another example of a Democrat who has cross party appeal. Nan Whaley, who's running to replace Mike DeWine as governor of Ohio, is another excellent candidate. And I'm optimistic that even with districts deemed unconstitutional by the Ohio Supreme Court, my district will elect a Democrat to the U.S. House, now that my city is no longer bifurcated.
I'm cautiously optimistic but as a Democrat in Ohio, I'm used to having my heart broken.
I live in Trump Country. Rural, farming, Christian. Lily white. The woods south of my farm is where the Governor Whitmer kidnap plan was practiced. The Qanon congress woman in the next town convinced at least two clerks to give her voting machine tabulators to be analyzed. She not only still serves, the Republicans refused to strip her of her committees even though she's under investigation. I have been saying this for at least five years and I'll say it again so those in the back of the room can hear me. The rural Republican voters here will NEVER vote for a Democrat. They are addicted to FOX and too far gone. Their pastors help whip up the frenzy by speaking of tyranny and end times. It doesn't matter what Democrats plan to do for them or what they've already done for them, which is plenty. Democrats are evil and anti-God as far as their concerned. They wouldn't elect a Democrat as dog catcher.
They resent anything that could be considered "the common good," because it might reach the hands of people they don't approve of, even if they have to do without as well. They are adamantly anti-abortion. Many single issue voters. The Michigan Farm Bureau tells them that Democrats are trying to ruin them financially through water regulations, which isn't true. Every time I hear strategists, newspaper columnists and talking heads discuss how the Dems need to try harder with rural people, I shake my head. You have to live among these people to understand them. Once the right managed to convince them that God was on their side all bets were off. When it's no longer about policy disagreements but God almighty, persuasion is dead.
"Ruy, who has spent decades as a progressive analyst"
No, he's a liberal analyst. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm a liberal myself. But there's a (legitimate, IMO) criticism that you don't have a long track record of seeking out voices for discussion that are past a certain point on the overton window. And representing Mr. Teixeira as being further along that continuum than he is doesn't really answer that criticism.
Well Charlie, if you feel the necessity to shove a list of myriad ways that Democrats have and are failing our country’s citizens 4 weeks before an election, then this could work as a form of voter suppression for many who may be just on that line of whether it’s worth their time to vote if everything is shit and is going to stay shit. Why the aggressive stance? What do you hope to accomplish from your list of negativity for our only Democratic Party? Are the Democrats perfect? No! No party ever is, but at least they are democratic versus the autocratic GOP or AGOP! Trump has been a scourge on this country and it’s the Republican Party who is responsible for all the misinformation, chaos and radical Supreme Court. Our democracy is on the line in the Moore v Harper case that our radical Supreme Court has chosen to review. Out of approximately 7000 cases of which our Supreme Court regularly reviews 70 per year, why did this Supreme Court chose this case? The radical 6 justices plan to give state legislatures unfettered reign over our elections. The ISL theory is a travesty and will end our system of democratic elections forever in this country. Maybe you could make the ISL theory number 1 on your list of all the ways that the GOP is and has been failing the citizens of this great country.
Personally, I like Mallory McMorrow's approach to "culture war" issues. She supports being inclusive of trans children because they are children and teaching the history of race in America because it is history. She approaches these issues as a mom who wants the best for her kids and their friends and neighbors, which is about as universal and community-oriented as it gets. I do not and never will understand the threat that this supposedly poses to people in "red" areas of the country.