Considering the other immoral, fraudulent, evil lengths Barr, Pence & Guilianni did for Trump in furtherance of their own interests, I find it hard to believe they still had “democracy antibodies”.I think it’s more likely Barr & Pence are two old white men who had & have racist, theocracy, patriarchal agendas. General Milley made it clear, military would not be used against its citizens. The implied flip side of Milley’s declaration is that the military WOULD use force to prevent sedition. Barr & Pence didn’t want to get killed or arrested. They’d advanced these agendas as far as they could go & only stopped short of open sedition because of fear. McConnell tried to draw line at January 6, because Trump was no longer useful for his anti democracy agenda. Unfortunately for McConnell, Trump’s base has become a monster he can’t control. Guiliana is an old mean, narcissistic, alcoholic, who was able to seemingly represent the right kind of masculinity at a pivotal time for country. He seemed & perhaps was competent when he was mayor. He was rapidly losing his cognitive abilities & desperately trying to recoup money he’d squandered & to stay relevant during the Trump years. I assume he had a moment of rare cognitive awareness that he might get killed if he pursued military solution.
I get looking for anything that looks like people respecting norms or not doing the absolute batshit crazy thing. It's because we are all completely exhausted by not only the batshit crazy, but by every time that Lucy yanks the football again. All the times we see a glimmer of a return to normalcy and then YANK. But we give them cookies for it every time, don't we? But I won't fall for this again. No, Rudy isn't someone that respected any norms. He was out there inciting a damn mob on January 6th. So I don't feel the need to give him a cookie or to respect that there might have been a line where he felt was maybe a bit too far for him to go - and let's be clear that's because he knew that if they did that, then neither he or Trump would have any cover. It's much easier to simply incite a mob instead or get other dupes to do things where Trump and Rudy are (more) insulated. He's a grifter, just like Trump.
Gotta give a hard “no”to the outrage about race-based treatment decisions. The author of the Atlantic article states that it’s not really race that makes the difference, it’s things that correlate to race, like socio-economic status, geography, etc. But research that controls for those factors still shows that there are racial differences in health outcomes. Rage against “wokeness” all you want, but this isn’t an example of that; it’s evidence-based medicine. Which is why it’s not getting attention: it’s a non-issue. I speak as a physician who spent the last two years working with COVID patients, and with a Master’s in medical ethics.
Charlie is trying real hard to give credit to these con men/women. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Most of them stopped at their "line" only because they would have got caught/stopped. If there was a way to do what TFG wanted without getting caught, they would have absolutely gone ahead. There is no absolute bottom here. They will only test the next bottom layer, normalize it and then go even deeper. Their "lines" were self-preservation and nothing more. TFG knows this fact the best. Hence his "pardon" dangling. Watch them now blow past those "lines" with impudence.
Along with fixing the Electoral College Act, Congress should also prioritize taking away/restricting a President's power to grant pardons willy-nilly.
Hi Charlie, Re: Covid derangement. I don’t know if you saw the NYTIMES article today about how Covid deaths in US are much higher than in other countries. There was nothing in the article about the active efforts of so many in GOP & media to undermine vaccine efficacy & deny severity of covid. There was passing mention, at the end of the article, about how so many Americans distrust media, science, institutions, but no mention of how RW media stokes that distrust. That a mainstream newspaper like NYT ignores impact of Fox, radio & GOP feels purposeful at this point. Fox and talk-radio have been around for a generation & have largely caused our parallel information universes, extreme partisan politics & GOP obstruction. Can you spend more time on this topic? It feels like democracy depends on it. Thank you.
You are wrong, I think, on there being a 'line.' This assumes that there is some sort of moral or ethical choice that they would not make, in order to avoid going down a road. This, I think, is wrong. Because in my view, that doesn't make sense. If you believe the election is stolen, then why wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent that?
The answer reveals itself later. Giuliani did not find a line he wouldn't cross. He was, and is, a true believer that he could find the evidence to prove the election was stolen. If we start from that point of view, then using the military would have jeopardized the 'win' condition of keeping Trump in office, because even IF he was right, he knew that using the military would cause too much of a backlash. As a true believer, he believed he could find the evidence and create the outcome in such a way as to create legitimacy for the result he wanted. This isn't not crossing a line so much as him trying to game out the best way to win.
One thing I think needs to be said: guys like Giuliani are crazy, but they're not insane. Their actions follow logic, if you can understand what they believe. It might be nice to think that he was having some kind of moral hesitation, but that's a lie. It's clear that he knew that his goal would be imperiled if Trump used the military, even if he was right.
Put it another way, once you cross the Rubicon, there's no justifying yourself after the fact. Everyone knows what you are. Rudy is crazy, not insane. He knows this. His boosters know this. The only one that doesn't care about this is Trump. It's what separates guys like Giuliani from guys like Flynn. Giuliani is a true believer and believes he can reveal the truth and everyone will accept his truth. Flynn doesn't care if it's true or not, he cares about having power, and he'll justify that however he wants to. Powell is roughly the same.
In some ways, Giuliani's choice was the worst choice for democracy. Had Trump actually given the order, it would have made clear what he was and what he wanted to do. Instead, he's been saved by a media complex that has obfuscated about the whole thing. By not crossing the Rubicon, by not giving the order, he's been able to make it seem like he never did and had no intention of doing so.
In many ways, Giuliani managed to create a situation where Trump survived to possibly be president again.
I’m forever puzzling over why we had an unvetted personal attorney of the president, helping run government at the highest level. Why do we bother with confirmation hearings, when there was an obvious cabal of un-confirmed devious plotters (Sydney Powell, Michael Flynn, Rudi Guilliani, etc) advising the president? Is this unprecedented? I really don’t know. I would suggest that we need to take a closer look at how things in the White House got so loosey goosey. We need some actual laws. “Laws”, not norms.
Usually when I read a comments section, I think Dark Thoughts about humanity and I have misgivings about universal suffrage. When I read comments at The Bulwark, I feel like there is hope for us yet.
Lest we forget, and before we hastily hang wreathes of honor 'round the necks of the supposed "hero's" who stopped #45 from seizing specific voting machines. Wasn't it Spineless Cuccinelli who was on CNN and FOX regularly defending all of 45's bizarre moves pre- and post-election, before Cucci himself actually weaseled himself a position in the Admin.? You don't suppose that when the USA's favorite Mayor called and asked Cucci to have his "guys run out and grab those voting machines." that the REAL "guys" at DHS may have given Ole Spineless Cuccinelli a hard stare back and said NO. That would certainly have led Ole Cuccinelli to respond in kind to the USA's favorite Mayor, and least favorite POTUS. The REAL guys may have even suggested that the mayor pass the word along to the other misfits that he was then scheming with in the Oval Office. That part of the story will probably appear in some later book, or perhaps the movie, once it, or they, are made.
The Right has complained about Leftist snowflakes for years, but it turns out that they are the biggest snowflakes out there. This is somehow neither surprising nor shocking.
Shouldn't we expect more out of the Presidency? Shouldn't there be higher expectations of the responsibility of this office?
As a Navy Officer...the leadership paradigm we were taught was always that the CO was responsible for everything on their ship. It appears to me that our POTUS, especially with Trump, can get away with just about anything...BECAUSE they are POTUS. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
One of my metrics of the backwards way the system is...is that Trump would have NEVER received Top Secret security clearance with his debts, bankruptcies and foreign ties. BUT...because he won the election....he jumped completely over the vetting process and became THE ISSUER of security clearances. Crazy!
Aren't Pence, Giuliani, and Barr all lawyers? Is there no legal or ethical mandate for lawyers to report to someone (maybe the FBI?) when they know illegal acts are being planned? Shouldn't they all be disbarred?
Barr's letter did not tell the public what we needed to know. Instead it was a fawning paean to Donald Trump. Pence did the right thing in the end, but again, did not speak out--and still hasn't spoken out --about the seditious conspiracy he knew was occurring. As for Giuliani--I don't believe that he drew a line. Why would he only do so after calling DHS? This smells to me like Rudy himself was the source of this "information," in some kind of belated attempt to polish his reputation, despite it now sitting at the bottom of the septic tank.
Considering the other immoral, fraudulent, evil lengths Barr, Pence & Guilianni did for Trump in furtherance of their own interests, I find it hard to believe they still had “democracy antibodies”.I think it’s more likely Barr & Pence are two old white men who had & have racist, theocracy, patriarchal agendas. General Milley made it clear, military would not be used against its citizens. The implied flip side of Milley’s declaration is that the military WOULD use force to prevent sedition. Barr & Pence didn’t want to get killed or arrested. They’d advanced these agendas as far as they could go & only stopped short of open sedition because of fear. McConnell tried to draw line at January 6, because Trump was no longer useful for his anti democracy agenda. Unfortunately for McConnell, Trump’s base has become a monster he can’t control. Guiliana is an old mean, narcissistic, alcoholic, who was able to seemingly represent the right kind of masculinity at a pivotal time for country. He seemed & perhaps was competent when he was mayor. He was rapidly losing his cognitive abilities & desperately trying to recoup money he’d squandered & to stay relevant during the Trump years. I assume he had a moment of rare cognitive awareness that he might get killed if he pursued military solution.
I get looking for anything that looks like people respecting norms or not doing the absolute batshit crazy thing. It's because we are all completely exhausted by not only the batshit crazy, but by every time that Lucy yanks the football again. All the times we see a glimmer of a return to normalcy and then YANK. But we give them cookies for it every time, don't we? But I won't fall for this again. No, Rudy isn't someone that respected any norms. He was out there inciting a damn mob on January 6th. So I don't feel the need to give him a cookie or to respect that there might have been a line where he felt was maybe a bit too far for him to go - and let's be clear that's because he knew that if they did that, then neither he or Trump would have any cover. It's much easier to simply incite a mob instead or get other dupes to do things where Trump and Rudy are (more) insulated. He's a grifter, just like Trump.
Jesus on a pony! https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/unmasking-rudy-giuliani-fox-masked-000424807.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
What in the Sam Hill is wrong with Michael Flynn?!? Of all people, he should know better. He’s either barking mad or suffering from a TBI.
Gotta give a hard “no”to the outrage about race-based treatment decisions. The author of the Atlantic article states that it’s not really race that makes the difference, it’s things that correlate to race, like socio-economic status, geography, etc. But research that controls for those factors still shows that there are racial differences in health outcomes. Rage against “wokeness” all you want, but this isn’t an example of that; it’s evidence-based medicine. Which is why it’s not getting attention: it’s a non-issue. I speak as a physician who spent the last two years working with COVID patients, and with a Master’s in medical ethics.
Disappointing.
Charlie is trying real hard to give credit to these con men/women. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Most of them stopped at their "line" only because they would have got caught/stopped. If there was a way to do what TFG wanted without getting caught, they would have absolutely gone ahead. There is no absolute bottom here. They will only test the next bottom layer, normalize it and then go even deeper. Their "lines" were self-preservation and nothing more. TFG knows this fact the best. Hence his "pardon" dangling. Watch them now blow past those "lines" with impudence.
Along with fixing the Electoral College Act, Congress should also prioritize taking away/restricting a President's power to grant pardons willy-nilly.
Hi Charlie, Re: Covid derangement. I don’t know if you saw the NYTIMES article today about how Covid deaths in US are much higher than in other countries. There was nothing in the article about the active efforts of so many in GOP & media to undermine vaccine efficacy & deny severity of covid. There was passing mention, at the end of the article, about how so many Americans distrust media, science, institutions, but no mention of how RW media stokes that distrust. That a mainstream newspaper like NYT ignores impact of Fox, radio & GOP feels purposeful at this point. Fox and talk-radio have been around for a generation & have largely caused our parallel information universes, extreme partisan politics & GOP obstruction. Can you spend more time on this topic? It feels like democracy depends on it. Thank you.
"Ha ha ha OMG! The grand debut of Four Seasons Total Landscaping was AMAZING! Thank you to everyone who showed up!" https://twitter.com/thecoopertom/status/1325710953305026560?s=20&t=Ba29k5frCHQwpRnC4Goj_A
..."the melting mayor of Four Seasons Landscaping" is genius. Thank you, Charlie. I needed that laugh.
You are wrong, I think, on there being a 'line.' This assumes that there is some sort of moral or ethical choice that they would not make, in order to avoid going down a road. This, I think, is wrong. Because in my view, that doesn't make sense. If you believe the election is stolen, then why wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent that?
The answer reveals itself later. Giuliani did not find a line he wouldn't cross. He was, and is, a true believer that he could find the evidence to prove the election was stolen. If we start from that point of view, then using the military would have jeopardized the 'win' condition of keeping Trump in office, because even IF he was right, he knew that using the military would cause too much of a backlash. As a true believer, he believed he could find the evidence and create the outcome in such a way as to create legitimacy for the result he wanted. This isn't not crossing a line so much as him trying to game out the best way to win.
One thing I think needs to be said: guys like Giuliani are crazy, but they're not insane. Their actions follow logic, if you can understand what they believe. It might be nice to think that he was having some kind of moral hesitation, but that's a lie. It's clear that he knew that his goal would be imperiled if Trump used the military, even if he was right.
Put it another way, once you cross the Rubicon, there's no justifying yourself after the fact. Everyone knows what you are. Rudy is crazy, not insane. He knows this. His boosters know this. The only one that doesn't care about this is Trump. It's what separates guys like Giuliani from guys like Flynn. Giuliani is a true believer and believes he can reveal the truth and everyone will accept his truth. Flynn doesn't care if it's true or not, he cares about having power, and he'll justify that however he wants to. Powell is roughly the same.
In some ways, Giuliani's choice was the worst choice for democracy. Had Trump actually given the order, it would have made clear what he was and what he wanted to do. Instead, he's been saved by a media complex that has obfuscated about the whole thing. By not crossing the Rubicon, by not giving the order, he's been able to make it seem like he never did and had no intention of doing so.
In many ways, Giuliani managed to create a situation where Trump survived to possibly be president again.
I’m forever puzzling over why we had an unvetted personal attorney of the president, helping run government at the highest level. Why do we bother with confirmation hearings, when there was an obvious cabal of un-confirmed devious plotters (Sydney Powell, Michael Flynn, Rudi Guilliani, etc) advising the president? Is this unprecedented? I really don’t know. I would suggest that we need to take a closer look at how things in the White House got so loosey goosey. We need some actual laws. “Laws”, not norms.
Usually when I read a comments section, I think Dark Thoughts about humanity and I have misgivings about universal suffrage. When I read comments at The Bulwark, I feel like there is hope for us yet.
Lest we forget, and before we hastily hang wreathes of honor 'round the necks of the supposed "hero's" who stopped #45 from seizing specific voting machines. Wasn't it Spineless Cuccinelli who was on CNN and FOX regularly defending all of 45's bizarre moves pre- and post-election, before Cucci himself actually weaseled himself a position in the Admin.? You don't suppose that when the USA's favorite Mayor called and asked Cucci to have his "guys run out and grab those voting machines." that the REAL "guys" at DHS may have given Ole Spineless Cuccinelli a hard stare back and said NO. That would certainly have led Ole Cuccinelli to respond in kind to the USA's favorite Mayor, and least favorite POTUS. The REAL guys may have even suggested that the mayor pass the word along to the other misfits that he was then scheming with in the Oval Office. That part of the story will probably appear in some later book, or perhaps the movie, once it, or they, are made.
The Right has complained about Leftist snowflakes for years, but it turns out that they are the biggest snowflakes out there. This is somehow neither surprising nor shocking.
Shouldn't we expect more out of the Presidency? Shouldn't there be higher expectations of the responsibility of this office?
As a Navy Officer...the leadership paradigm we were taught was always that the CO was responsible for everything on their ship. It appears to me that our POTUS, especially with Trump, can get away with just about anything...BECAUSE they are POTUS. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
One of my metrics of the backwards way the system is...is that Trump would have NEVER received Top Secret security clearance with his debts, bankruptcies and foreign ties. BUT...because he won the election....he jumped completely over the vetting process and became THE ISSUER of security clearances. Crazy!
Aren't Pence, Giuliani, and Barr all lawyers? Is there no legal or ethical mandate for lawyers to report to someone (maybe the FBI?) when they know illegal acts are being planned? Shouldn't they all be disbarred?
Barr's letter did not tell the public what we needed to know. Instead it was a fawning paean to Donald Trump. Pence did the right thing in the end, but again, did not speak out--and still hasn't spoken out --about the seditious conspiracy he knew was occurring. As for Giuliani--I don't believe that he drew a line. Why would he only do so after calling DHS? This smells to me like Rudy himself was the source of this "information," in some kind of belated attempt to polish his reputation, despite it now sitting at the bottom of the septic tank.