Guilianni as the voice of reason in this debacle is a freakin' joke. The fact that he found a line he wouldn't cross is less true than the fact that he sited stated law or precedent. Guilianni has no bottom, let's not kid ourselves.
Pence, Barr, Cuccinelli and all the other disastrous sycophants deserve absolutely, positively no quarter either. Just because they each made one good decision (that obviously proved consequential) in a very long line of horrendous decisions, does not equate to them finding a spine. They are all wealthy men, they will be fine no matter what happens in this country, they will remain untouched by any negative consequences, save some reputational damage, and if the Republican Party has proven anything in the last 5 years, it has proven there is no such thing as reputational damage.
It is time to stop believing that any of those people have any integrity. They are self serving, opportunists that will find another grift to attach themselves to.
Voting D all the way down to dog-catcher (as Tom Nichols says) is the only way this Republic has a chance.
Usually when I read a comments section, I think Dark Thoughts about humanity and I have misgivings about universal suffrage. When I read comments at The Bulwark, I feel like there is hope for us yet.
“The people who made those crucial decisions were acting out of a sense that anything less would be dishonorable and would be perceived as such by the whole society.”
Sorry, but this sentence reveals some very sloppy thinking. There is a world of difference between people who have a highly developed sense of what is or isn't honorable behavior and those who merely sense what behavior might trigger public opprobrium.
The nature of Trumpism was clear from the very beginning. Trump clearly has no reverence for those ideals necessary for the health of constitutional and democratic governance. He has nothing but contempt for the very idea of "honor." Let's not lose sight of how contemptible support for this man was and is. A Liz Cheney has taken very significant steps toward redemption. But even in her case, she has a lot to answer for. The list of supposedly heroic Republican officials who finally bumped up against some limit were put in that position because they supported a shameless moral toddler who would gladly destroy everything this country has accomplished if it fit the needs of his fragile ego. This country is running on moral fumes.
Shouldn't we expect more out of the Presidency? Shouldn't there be higher expectations of the responsibility of this office?
As a Navy Officer...the leadership paradigm we were taught was always that the CO was responsible for everything on their ship. It appears to me that our POTUS, especially with Trump, can get away with just about anything...BECAUSE they are POTUS. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
One of my metrics of the backwards way the system is...is that Trump would have NEVER received Top Secret security clearance with his debts, bankruptcies and foreign ties. BUT...because he won the election....he jumped completely over the vetting process and became THE ISSUER of security clearances. Crazy!
I’m forever puzzling over why we had an unvetted personal attorney of the president, helping run government at the highest level. Why do we bother with confirmation hearings, when there was an obvious cabal of un-confirmed devious plotters (Sydney Powell, Michael Flynn, Rudi Guilliani, etc) advising the president? Is this unprecedented? I really don’t know. I would suggest that we need to take a closer look at how things in the White House got so loosey goosey. We need some actual laws. “Laws”, not norms.
Aren't Pence, Giuliani, and Barr all lawyers? Is there no legal or ethical mandate for lawyers to report to someone (maybe the FBI?) when they know illegal acts are being planned? Shouldn't they all be disbarred?
Barr's letter did not tell the public what we needed to know. Instead it was a fawning paean to Donald Trump. Pence did the right thing in the end, but again, did not speak out--and still hasn't spoken out --about the seditious conspiracy he knew was occurring. As for Giuliani--I don't believe that he drew a line. Why would he only do so after calling DHS? This smells to me like Rudy himself was the source of this "information," in some kind of belated attempt to polish his reputation, despite it now sitting at the bottom of the septic tank.
“ For all their many faults, Pence, Barr, and even Giuliani came from a different era of American politics, with lingering (and rapidly fading) memories of the rule of law and a (more or less) decent respect for the opinions of mankind.”
Really? Isn’t it far more likely they were just making the usual choice of Malignant Nihilists since the dawn of time - “when it might be MY ass in a sling, I have NO respect for anything but my own tuchis”?
You are wrong, I think, on there being a 'line.' This assumes that there is some sort of moral or ethical choice that they would not make, in order to avoid going down a road. This, I think, is wrong. Because in my view, that doesn't make sense. If you believe the election is stolen, then why wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent that?
The answer reveals itself later. Giuliani did not find a line he wouldn't cross. He was, and is, a true believer that he could find the evidence to prove the election was stolen. If we start from that point of view, then using the military would have jeopardized the 'win' condition of keeping Trump in office, because even IF he was right, he knew that using the military would cause too much of a backlash. As a true believer, he believed he could find the evidence and create the outcome in such a way as to create legitimacy for the result he wanted. This isn't not crossing a line so much as him trying to game out the best way to win.
One thing I think needs to be said: guys like Giuliani are crazy, but they're not insane. Their actions follow logic, if you can understand what they believe. It might be nice to think that he was having some kind of moral hesitation, but that's a lie. It's clear that he knew that his goal would be imperiled if Trump used the military, even if he was right.
Put it another way, once you cross the Rubicon, there's no justifying yourself after the fact. Everyone knows what you are. Rudy is crazy, not insane. He knows this. His boosters know this. The only one that doesn't care about this is Trump. It's what separates guys like Giuliani from guys like Flynn. Giuliani is a true believer and believes he can reveal the truth and everyone will accept his truth. Flynn doesn't care if it's true or not, he cares about having power, and he'll justify that however he wants to. Powell is roughly the same.
In some ways, Giuliani's choice was the worst choice for democracy. Had Trump actually given the order, it would have made clear what he was and what he wanted to do. Instead, he's been saved by a media complex that has obfuscated about the whole thing. By not crossing the Rubicon, by not giving the order, he's been able to make it seem like he never did and had no intention of doing so.
In many ways, Giuliani managed to create a situation where Trump survived to possibly be president again.
One thing I've noticed consistently about insider stories of Trumpworld is that nobody actually seems to like each other, everyone is doing the purest form of Machiavellian transactional relationships. In that sense, it makes perfect sense that Pence, Giuliani, Barr, etc., would not want go to prison for Trump. They just watched the Mueller investigation play out where many people went to prison for Trump, only to be promptly disowned.
Rudy was already so far past the Rubicon regarding his legacy. I'm pretty stunned there was a place he wasn't willing to go to. He must have a humiliation kink, too, like Tim Miller says of Ted Cruz. To publicly do the Four Seasons presser, publicly argue cases that got him laughed out of court and his law license revoked, to willingly submit to such public humiliation in an effort to overturn an election, then not go along with the seizure of machines by the military? Total humiliation kink and spotlight/relevance whore.
Lest we forget, and before we hastily hang wreathes of honor 'round the necks of the supposed "hero's" who stopped #45 from seizing specific voting machines. Wasn't it Spineless Cuccinelli who was on CNN and FOX regularly defending all of 45's bizarre moves pre- and post-election, before Cucci himself actually weaseled himself a position in the Admin.? You don't suppose that when the USA's favorite Mayor called and asked Cucci to have his "guys run out and grab those voting machines." that the REAL "guys" at DHS may have given Ole Spineless Cuccinelli a hard stare back and said NO. That would certainly have led Ole Cuccinelli to respond in kind to the USA's favorite Mayor, and least favorite POTUS. The REAL guys may have even suggested that the mayor pass the word along to the other misfits that he was then scheming with in the Oval Office. That part of the story will probably appear in some later book, or perhaps the movie, once it, or they, are made.
The Right has complained about Leftist snowflakes for years, but it turns out that they are the biggest snowflakes out there. This is somehow neither surprising nor shocking.
So are you suggesting that this is what stands for character in the new GOP ? Is this the best we can hope to get as a nominee for President? Then maybe this is what we run against, because the people who would support Pence in 2024 are possibly persuadable to support a moderate Democrat.
The Barr-Pence Line
Guilianni as the voice of reason in this debacle is a freakin' joke. The fact that he found a line he wouldn't cross is less true than the fact that he sited stated law or precedent. Guilianni has no bottom, let's not kid ourselves.
Pence, Barr, Cuccinelli and all the other disastrous sycophants deserve absolutely, positively no quarter either. Just because they each made one good decision (that obviously proved consequential) in a very long line of horrendous decisions, does not equate to them finding a spine. They are all wealthy men, they will be fine no matter what happens in this country, they will remain untouched by any negative consequences, save some reputational damage, and if the Republican Party has proven anything in the last 5 years, it has proven there is no such thing as reputational damage.
It is time to stop believing that any of those people have any integrity. They are self serving, opportunists that will find another grift to attach themselves to.
Voting D all the way down to dog-catcher (as Tom Nichols says) is the only way this Republic has a chance.
"The Melting Mayor of Four Seasons Landsc...."
There's coffee running down my laptop screen. Thanks, Charlie.
Usually when I read a comments section, I think Dark Thoughts about humanity and I have misgivings about universal suffrage. When I read comments at The Bulwark, I feel like there is hope for us yet.
“The people who made those crucial decisions were acting out of a sense that anything less would be dishonorable and would be perceived as such by the whole society.”
Sorry, but this sentence reveals some very sloppy thinking. There is a world of difference between people who have a highly developed sense of what is or isn't honorable behavior and those who merely sense what behavior might trigger public opprobrium.
The nature of Trumpism was clear from the very beginning. Trump clearly has no reverence for those ideals necessary for the health of constitutional and democratic governance. He has nothing but contempt for the very idea of "honor." Let's not lose sight of how contemptible support for this man was and is. A Liz Cheney has taken very significant steps toward redemption. But even in her case, she has a lot to answer for. The list of supposedly heroic Republican officials who finally bumped up against some limit were put in that position because they supported a shameless moral toddler who would gladly destroy everything this country has accomplished if it fit the needs of his fragile ego. This country is running on moral fumes.
Shouldn't we expect more out of the Presidency? Shouldn't there be higher expectations of the responsibility of this office?
As a Navy Officer...the leadership paradigm we were taught was always that the CO was responsible for everything on their ship. It appears to me that our POTUS, especially with Trump, can get away with just about anything...BECAUSE they are POTUS. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
One of my metrics of the backwards way the system is...is that Trump would have NEVER received Top Secret security clearance with his debts, bankruptcies and foreign ties. BUT...because he won the election....he jumped completely over the vetting process and became THE ISSUER of security clearances. Crazy!
I’m forever puzzling over why we had an unvetted personal attorney of the president, helping run government at the highest level. Why do we bother with confirmation hearings, when there was an obvious cabal of un-confirmed devious plotters (Sydney Powell, Michael Flynn, Rudi Guilliani, etc) advising the president? Is this unprecedented? I really don’t know. I would suggest that we need to take a closer look at how things in the White House got so loosey goosey. We need some actual laws. “Laws”, not norms.
Aren't Pence, Giuliani, and Barr all lawyers? Is there no legal or ethical mandate for lawyers to report to someone (maybe the FBI?) when they know illegal acts are being planned? Shouldn't they all be disbarred?
Barr's letter did not tell the public what we needed to know. Instead it was a fawning paean to Donald Trump. Pence did the right thing in the end, but again, did not speak out--and still hasn't spoken out --about the seditious conspiracy he knew was occurring. As for Giuliani--I don't believe that he drew a line. Why would he only do so after calling DHS? This smells to me like Rudy himself was the source of this "information," in some kind of belated attempt to polish his reputation, despite it now sitting at the bottom of the septic tank.
“ For all their many faults, Pence, Barr, and even Giuliani came from a different era of American politics, with lingering (and rapidly fading) memories of the rule of law and a (more or less) decent respect for the opinions of mankind.”
Really? Isn’t it far more likely they were just making the usual choice of Malignant Nihilists since the dawn of time - “when it might be MY ass in a sling, I have NO respect for anything but my own tuchis”?
Perhaps we can reward Rudy for his principled service/moment of lucidity by giving him back Borat’s daughter
You are wrong, I think, on there being a 'line.' This assumes that there is some sort of moral or ethical choice that they would not make, in order to avoid going down a road. This, I think, is wrong. Because in my view, that doesn't make sense. If you believe the election is stolen, then why wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent that?
The answer reveals itself later. Giuliani did not find a line he wouldn't cross. He was, and is, a true believer that he could find the evidence to prove the election was stolen. If we start from that point of view, then using the military would have jeopardized the 'win' condition of keeping Trump in office, because even IF he was right, he knew that using the military would cause too much of a backlash. As a true believer, he believed he could find the evidence and create the outcome in such a way as to create legitimacy for the result he wanted. This isn't not crossing a line so much as him trying to game out the best way to win.
One thing I think needs to be said: guys like Giuliani are crazy, but they're not insane. Their actions follow logic, if you can understand what they believe. It might be nice to think that he was having some kind of moral hesitation, but that's a lie. It's clear that he knew that his goal would be imperiled if Trump used the military, even if he was right.
Put it another way, once you cross the Rubicon, there's no justifying yourself after the fact. Everyone knows what you are. Rudy is crazy, not insane. He knows this. His boosters know this. The only one that doesn't care about this is Trump. It's what separates guys like Giuliani from guys like Flynn. Giuliani is a true believer and believes he can reveal the truth and everyone will accept his truth. Flynn doesn't care if it's true or not, he cares about having power, and he'll justify that however he wants to. Powell is roughly the same.
In some ways, Giuliani's choice was the worst choice for democracy. Had Trump actually given the order, it would have made clear what he was and what he wanted to do. Instead, he's been saved by a media complex that has obfuscated about the whole thing. By not crossing the Rubicon, by not giving the order, he's been able to make it seem like he never did and had no intention of doing so.
In many ways, Giuliani managed to create a situation where Trump survived to possibly be president again.
I’m no snowflake, but if my college had a room where I could play with teddy bears, I would have never come out of that room.
One thing I've noticed consistently about insider stories of Trumpworld is that nobody actually seems to like each other, everyone is doing the purest form of Machiavellian transactional relationships. In that sense, it makes perfect sense that Pence, Giuliani, Barr, etc., would not want go to prison for Trump. They just watched the Mueller investigation play out where many people went to prison for Trump, only to be promptly disowned.
Rudy was already so far past the Rubicon regarding his legacy. I'm pretty stunned there was a place he wasn't willing to go to. He must have a humiliation kink, too, like Tim Miller says of Ted Cruz. To publicly do the Four Seasons presser, publicly argue cases that got him laughed out of court and his law license revoked, to willingly submit to such public humiliation in an effort to overturn an election, then not go along with the seizure of machines by the military? Total humiliation kink and spotlight/relevance whore.
Lest we forget, and before we hastily hang wreathes of honor 'round the necks of the supposed "hero's" who stopped #45 from seizing specific voting machines. Wasn't it Spineless Cuccinelli who was on CNN and FOX regularly defending all of 45's bizarre moves pre- and post-election, before Cucci himself actually weaseled himself a position in the Admin.? You don't suppose that when the USA's favorite Mayor called and asked Cucci to have his "guys run out and grab those voting machines." that the REAL "guys" at DHS may have given Ole Spineless Cuccinelli a hard stare back and said NO. That would certainly have led Ole Cuccinelli to respond in kind to the USA's favorite Mayor, and least favorite POTUS. The REAL guys may have even suggested that the mayor pass the word along to the other misfits that he was then scheming with in the Oval Office. That part of the story will probably appear in some later book, or perhaps the movie, once it, or they, are made.
The Right has complained about Leftist snowflakes for years, but it turns out that they are the biggest snowflakes out there. This is somehow neither surprising nor shocking.
So are you suggesting that this is what stands for character in the new GOP ? Is this the best we can hope to get as a nominee for President? Then maybe this is what we run against, because the people who would support Pence in 2024 are possibly persuadable to support a moderate Democrat.